An appeals court rejected Kennth Smith's challenge to the nitrogen gas execution plans on Wednesday night. SCOTUS has already rejected a different challenge he brought.
The last time anyone put this much time, effort, work, thought, detail, preparation, motivation, and enthusiasm into "efficient" killing was the Third Reich. So, so, so much worse than killing out of emotion.
The headline was already in r/NotTheOnion territory, and the rest of the article only increase the horror of the story. The lawmakers responsible had best hope G-d is more merciful than they are.
Mississippi's position is that if executions get botched it's the fault of people who had ethical objections to participating in them, and of the activists who gave them notice. I'm sure Alabama's is similar.
I know that there are strong opinions on both sides of the death penalty issue, but as someone who does not believe in the death penalty, I am so horrified by the fact that this is being done, and that the justices don’t even bother to defend their decision to allow this to proceed. It makes me feel helpless and sad. Is there anything that I can do as a member of the public?
I'm hoping that getting informed and educating the public will at least make a dent. I started the Project because even good journalists specifically on the death penalty beat were understanding just how poorly thought out lethal injection protocols were.
I am in 100% agreement with everything that you wrote so well, and share your feelings of horror, helplessness and sorrow. This IS unconscionable. I can not help but wonder, what barbaric method will they come up with next?
The fact that Alabama is still going through with this tortuous, untested and I believe, way beyond what is currently defined as “cruel and unusual” punishment, indicates to me that our culture is declining even more rapidly than I thought.
Since we know the death penalty is not a deterrent and the sense of “closure” that some families hope for is short lived, if it happens at all, then the executioners must admit that it’s all about punishment.
The initial attempt to murder Mr Smith turned into a long and excruciating failure. His suffering was far beyond anyone’s imagination, turning an “execution” into a long session of cruel and unusual punishment. At this point, one would think that the barbaric requirement for “punishment” has been more than satisfied.
All but one juror at conclusion of Kenneth Smith’s trial voted for him to serve Life in Prison, not death. But the judge overruled them.
As you mentioned, the justices are not even defending their decision to proceed.
I guess that this goes along with our county’s rapid moral decline in addition to its propensity to take away our rights. Once again, we are in the process of loosing another right; the concept of following a jury’s recommendation.
So maybe it’s not just about punishment. Perhaps it’s another attempt to devalue and desensitize us and to make us feel powerless, afraid and defeated.
In addition, could it be with the increasing loss of all the values we’ve held dear, that many in our society have regressed into culture of blood lust?
I just hope that everyone commenting realizes that these are "Elected" officials. We have a chance in the future to elect people with knowledge and wisdom vs political upbringing and popular opinion. We have created a government based off of popular vote from a political upbringing which has brought us no scientist, doctors, or knowledge enough people in office to even know what they are allowing or denying.
Where are all the pro-lifers? Where’s the evangelicals? Where’s the Catholic Church? This determination to take extreme measures to kill a person who was not sentenced to death by a jury seems to fit with the upside down world we’re experiencing. How enlightened is a society that refuses to give up the death penalty?
Given that Baze and Glossip essentially establish no floor for efficacy of a method as long as the state can say it with a straight face, I don't think Smith has much hope.
Also, this is just as much Groundhog Day as a new era:
15 minutes to execute a person is cruel and unusual punishment all by itself. After enduring one failed attempt, this man deserves a break. Keep him in prison and practice this death method on someone else.
The try to execute him a second time after a botched attempt after multiple other botched attempts claim warranted some discussion by some justice. I continue to assume when a justice does not publicly dissent that they consented. They have the option not to dissent. Dissenting in their heart to me is of limited value. I know "the rules." I don't buy it.
Maybe someone will comment on the novel use of nitrogen gas argument.
Actually, my original comment was sort of a *reductio ad absurdum" remark NOT intended to be taken seriously...just got drawn into this lengthly thread by your and others commentary. But, quite anecdotally, carbon monoxide is an effective lethal "poison", as stealthy loss of consciousness precedes ultimate death by exposure, and is time-sensitive AFAIK...perhaps too long for a state-administered execution.
If N2 doesn't work, AL could move to CO2, or even more "humane", CO...the latter kills hundreds of Americans each year, and is known as the "silent killer". Using Smith as a guinea pig test subject surely violates 8th Amendment strictures, no?
CO2 and CO are not inert gases; the body is definitely going to notice (and not like) those. I think that would be too much for even this SCOTUS, but I've been surprised before.
Agreed, but both CO2 and CO cause gradual loss of consciousness and terminal loss of life in a saturated environment. One could even argue that it's "humane" due to lack of pain until death intercedes.
Not sure where you're getting that from. Hypoxia/hypercapnia have a whole host of torturous physiological consequences; the reason nitrogen "works" is that it's theorized to cause *instant* unconsciousness.
I don't see where you get from that that non-inert gases would be better. I'm well aware of the theory Alabama is working from; I wrote my own piece on it here:
The last time anyone put this much time, effort, work, thought, detail, preparation, motivation, and enthusiasm into "efficient" killing was the Third Reich. So, so, so much worse than killing out of emotion.
The headline was already in r/NotTheOnion territory, and the rest of the article only increase the horror of the story. The lawmakers responsible had best hope G-d is more merciful than they are.
Mississippi's position is that if executions get botched it's the fault of people who had ethical objections to participating in them, and of the activists who gave them notice. I'm sure Alabama's is similar.
I know that there are strong opinions on both sides of the death penalty issue, but as someone who does not believe in the death penalty, I am so horrified by the fact that this is being done, and that the justices don’t even bother to defend their decision to allow this to proceed. It makes me feel helpless and sad. Is there anything that I can do as a member of the public?
I'm hoping that getting informed and educating the public will at least make a dent. I started the Project because even good journalists specifically on the death penalty beat were understanding just how poorly thought out lethal injection protocols were.
I am in 100% agreement with everything that you wrote so well, and share your feelings of horror, helplessness and sorrow. This IS unconscionable. I can not help but wonder, what barbaric method will they come up with next?
The fact that Alabama is still going through with this tortuous, untested and I believe, way beyond what is currently defined as “cruel and unusual” punishment, indicates to me that our culture is declining even more rapidly than I thought.
Since we know the death penalty is not a deterrent and the sense of “closure” that some families hope for is short lived, if it happens at all, then the executioners must admit that it’s all about punishment.
The initial attempt to murder Mr Smith turned into a long and excruciating failure. His suffering was far beyond anyone’s imagination, turning an “execution” into a long session of cruel and unusual punishment. At this point, one would think that the barbaric requirement for “punishment” has been more than satisfied.
All but one juror at conclusion of Kenneth Smith’s trial voted for him to serve Life in Prison, not death. But the judge overruled them.
As you mentioned, the justices are not even defending their decision to proceed.
I guess that this goes along with our county’s rapid moral decline in addition to its propensity to take away our rights. Once again, we are in the process of loosing another right; the concept of following a jury’s recommendation.
So maybe it’s not just about punishment. Perhaps it’s another attempt to devalue and desensitize us and to make us feel powerless, afraid and defeated.
In addition, could it be with the increasing loss of all the values we’ve held dear, that many in our society have regressed into culture of blood lust?
Somehow, we must take action. I’m ready.
I just hope that everyone commenting realizes that these are "Elected" officials. We have a chance in the future to elect people with knowledge and wisdom vs political upbringing and popular opinion. We have created a government based off of popular vote from a political upbringing which has brought us no scientist, doctors, or knowledge enough people in office to even know what they are allowing or denying.
Where are all the pro-lifers? Where’s the evangelicals? Where’s the Catholic Church? This determination to take extreme measures to kill a person who was not sentenced to death by a jury seems to fit with the upside down world we’re experiencing. How enlightened is a society that refuses to give up the death penalty?
Mr. Smith is nothing more than a guinea pig for a new
way to kill.
And no, I don't believe in the
death penalty.
Given that Baze and Glossip essentially establish no floor for efficacy of a method as long as the state can say it with a straight face, I don't think Smith has much hope.
Also, this is just as much Groundhog Day as a new era:
https://medicineandjustice.substack.com/p/from-the-precipice-nitrogen-asphyxiation
15 minutes to execute a person is cruel and unusual punishment all by itself. After enduring one failed attempt, this man deserves a break. Keep him in prison and practice this death method on someone else.
Alabama could save some money and just use a plastic bag...
You joke, but Arizona is ditching the whole humane mess and bringing back its cyanide-based gas chamber protocol.
I was literally just thinking that. Shoot be like the Nazis that love so much and bring back Zyklon-B!
The try to execute him a second time after a botched attempt after multiple other botched attempts claim warranted some discussion by some justice. I continue to assume when a justice does not publicly dissent that they consented. They have the option not to dissent. Dissenting in their heart to me is of limited value. I know "the rules." I don't buy it.
Maybe someone will comment on the novel use of nitrogen gas argument.
The answer is yes.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alabama-can-proceed-first-ever-nitrogen-gas-execution-us-appeals-court-rcna131910
This is the 11th Circuit ruling. A Supreme Court appeal on this issue is likely.
(FYI: That NBC story, at least as of now, has a lot wrong and confused.)
Actually, my original comment was sort of a *reductio ad absurdum" remark NOT intended to be taken seriously...just got drawn into this lengthly thread by your and others commentary. But, quite anecdotally, carbon monoxide is an effective lethal "poison", as stealthy loss of consciousness precedes ultimate death by exposure, and is time-sensitive AFAIK...perhaps too long for a state-administered execution.
Don't get me wrong, it would absolutely work. And I grow ever less optimistic SCOTUS would stop it.
If N2 doesn't work, AL could move to CO2, or even more "humane", CO...the latter kills hundreds of Americans each year, and is known as the "silent killer". Using Smith as a guinea pig test subject surely violates 8th Amendment strictures, no?
CO2 and CO are not inert gases; the body is definitely going to notice (and not like) those. I think that would be too much for even this SCOTUS, but I've been surprised before.
Agreed, but both CO2 and CO cause gradual loss of consciousness and terminal loss of life in a saturated environment. One could even argue that it's "humane" due to lack of pain until death intercedes.
Not sure where you're getting that from. Hypoxia/hypercapnia have a whole host of torturous physiological consequences; the reason nitrogen "works" is that it's theorized to cause *instant* unconsciousness.
Here, check out this article in Scientific American discussing so-called "nitrogen hypoxia" and other execution methods:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-execution-method-touted-as-more-humane-but-evidence-is-lacking/
I don't see where you get from that that non-inert gases would be better. I'm well aware of the theory Alabama is working from; I wrote my own piece on it here:
https://medicineandjustice.substack.com/p/from-the-precipice-nitrogen-asphyxiation