As a British lawyer I struggle with some of the detail so I appreciate your careful summaries. But the basic principle is the same in both jurisdictions- however much you dislike them court orders must be obeyed until they are successfully appealed or overturned by legislation. Unfortunately that is not presently being observed by the Tr…
As a British lawyer I struggle with some of the detail so I appreciate your careful summaries. But the basic principle is the same in both jurisdictions- however much you dislike them court orders must be obeyed until they are successfully appealed or overturned by legislation. Unfortunately that is not presently being observed by the Trump regime which continues to ignore or lie about orders it dislikes even those few that have emanated so far from the SCOTUS vis Miller’s characterisation of the 9-0 order in the KAG case as being a win for the government.
Which brings me (finally) to my question- how do the courts enforce their orders if the government continues to ignore them?
Here's way more detail than you wanted. I suspect British courts have similar processes, since we borrowed all this from British law.
Courts have what are called contempt powers to enforce their orders. These usually involve fines, for instance, $100. per day paid by the ABC corporation until it stops pouring its filth into the river. In some instances, contempt power can be used to jail a recalcitrant defendant, for instance, hot shot reporter will remain in jail until they reveal their sources (ignore the 1st Am. issue here).
Finally, courts have bailiffs working for them. These guys, usually semi-retired law enforcement, keep order in the court every day. If a court finds a witness in contempt for failing to respond to its subpoena ordering them to appear to testify, the bailiff hunt them down and haul them into court.
We are in uncharted waters here with an executive branch going rogue while the legislative branch is paralyzed. I am less familiar with federal court procedures, but I believe the US Marshals enforce federal court contempt orders against individuals. I have seen some discussion that since the marshals are managed by the executive branch, they might refuse to haul Trump cronies into federal courts.
We are pretty much at a constitutional impasse here in my opinion. Note Abrego-Garcia is not home yet although the administration was ordered to do so. What does the court do? Assess fines? Jail Stephen Miller? This is like a law school hypothetical no one ever thought would come to pass in real life. All systems will break down when the participants do not act ethically and in good faith.
If the people keep hitting the streets, Republicans in Congress may eventually fear their constituents more than Trump. At which point, they will defy him and start exercising their Art. I powers. I'm glad the judge spelled that part out so clearly - so the people realize Congress is screwing us over here. Because the people are also part of checks and balances. They just need to realize they are being called to action.
Thanks, and I appreciate the detail. We do indeed have similar procedures with similar names, like habeas corpus and contempt of court with bailiffs to enforce it. (You might have heard tell of one Tommy Robinson who is presently in a UK prison for contempt of court though here there is a limit to the sentence of 2 years).
I have also read about the enforcement powers of Marshalls but my concern is slightly different from yours - that they will haul trump minions who are put forward “take the rap” into court and they will be sacrificed by this amoral regime whilst the real miscreants continue to monetise their power. Like you say the system breaks down when the participants or even just one of them stops acting in good faith.
Hopefully the Reps will come to fear their constituents sooner rather than later.
I'm heartened by this ruling and appreciate the detailed explanation. Interesting that Congress is crickets on this whole thing. So Trump runs a steamroller over 271 Republican Congresspeople, and a judge says he can't do what he's doing without Congressional approval.
What happens if they don't care?
Whats the likelihood Trump will try to push it through Congress to get the necessary aporoval?
Does it matter? There are always rubber meets the road restrictions on anything; in the meantime, we need to ignore his claims that he's exempt and not give them any oxygen
As a British lawyer I struggle with some of the detail so I appreciate your careful summaries. But the basic principle is the same in both jurisdictions- however much you dislike them court orders must be obeyed until they are successfully appealed or overturned by legislation. Unfortunately that is not presently being observed by the Trump regime which continues to ignore or lie about orders it dislikes even those few that have emanated so far from the SCOTUS vis Miller’s characterisation of the 9-0 order in the KAG case as being a win for the government.
Which brings me (finally) to my question- how do the courts enforce their orders if the government continues to ignore them?
Here's way more detail than you wanted. I suspect British courts have similar processes, since we borrowed all this from British law.
Courts have what are called contempt powers to enforce their orders. These usually involve fines, for instance, $100. per day paid by the ABC corporation until it stops pouring its filth into the river. In some instances, contempt power can be used to jail a recalcitrant defendant, for instance, hot shot reporter will remain in jail until they reveal their sources (ignore the 1st Am. issue here).
Finally, courts have bailiffs working for them. These guys, usually semi-retired law enforcement, keep order in the court every day. If a court finds a witness in contempt for failing to respond to its subpoena ordering them to appear to testify, the bailiff hunt them down and haul them into court.
We are in uncharted waters here with an executive branch going rogue while the legislative branch is paralyzed. I am less familiar with federal court procedures, but I believe the US Marshals enforce federal court contempt orders against individuals. I have seen some discussion that since the marshals are managed by the executive branch, they might refuse to haul Trump cronies into federal courts.
We are pretty much at a constitutional impasse here in my opinion. Note Abrego-Garcia is not home yet although the administration was ordered to do so. What does the court do? Assess fines? Jail Stephen Miller? This is like a law school hypothetical no one ever thought would come to pass in real life. All systems will break down when the participants do not act ethically and in good faith.
If the people keep hitting the streets, Republicans in Congress may eventually fear their constituents more than Trump. At which point, they will defy him and start exercising their Art. I powers. I'm glad the judge spelled that part out so clearly - so the people realize Congress is screwing us over here. Because the people are also part of checks and balances. They just need to realize they are being called to action.
Thanks, and I appreciate the detail. We do indeed have similar procedures with similar names, like habeas corpus and contempt of court with bailiffs to enforce it. (You might have heard tell of one Tommy Robinson who is presently in a UK prison for contempt of court though here there is a limit to the sentence of 2 years).
I have also read about the enforcement powers of Marshalls but my concern is slightly different from yours - that they will haul trump minions who are put forward “take the rap” into court and they will be sacrificed by this amoral regime whilst the real miscreants continue to monetise their power. Like you say the system breaks down when the participants or even just one of them stops acting in good faith.
Hopefully the Reps will come to fear their constituents sooner rather than later.
I'm heartened by this ruling and appreciate the detailed explanation. Interesting that Congress is crickets on this whole thing. So Trump runs a steamroller over 271 Republican Congresspeople, and a judge says he can't do what he's doing without Congressional approval.
What happens if they don't care?
Whats the likelihood Trump will try to push it through Congress to get the necessary aporoval?
Does it matter? There are always rubber meets the road restrictions on anything; in the meantime, we need to ignore his claims that he's exempt and not give them any oxygen